Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Rise up at work. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. And today we are unlocking the work life you were meant to live. You're watching Now Media Television.
Hi, welcome to Rise up at work. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. Well, success at work is often measured by performance, productivity and results. Right? We know that. But here's the truth. Beneath every high performing team, there's a thriving culture or a successful organization.
There's something much more fundamental and it's human relationships. And when it comes to human relationships, and I was thinking about what type of guests I wanted, Paula Quincy's name came to mind. She's the CEO of Engaged Humans. She's an international speaker, She's a relationship intelligence expert. And there's so much to her that when I read her bio, I was intrigued. I actually caught up with some of the work she's done and I'm really excited to have her on the show today. Through her work, Paula helps organizations build high trust environments where people communicate better, resolve conflict more effectively and thrive together. Paula, welcome to Rise up at Work.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's so great to be here today.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Paula, I'm going to ask a question that always sounds threatening, but it's not. Paula, why should my listeners be listening to you? What problem, what pain could you possibly solve for them? Could you start with that? It's my way of asking you to introduce yourself.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Sure. So my, my mission in life is to bring the human back into the workplace and into the home because I believe that we are living such disconnected lives today. We are disconnected from ourselves.
We are disconnected in our home environments, which is why the divorce rate is so high and dysfunctional families and communities and in the workplace. The stats speak for themselves.
Up to 68% of employees are disengaged in the workplace.
So I bring the human back to bring back that human connection for us to interact and engage with each other as human beings and see each other as human beings.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: So, Paul, a question for you. Usually when I talk to people, even if you look at my own sense of being right, this is like a calling. When I was listening to you, I just wanted to understand, was there something very deep that inspired this passion, a personal event, something that you saw that said, you know what, this is my calling. I want to spend time on this.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Yes. So through my own personal journey of personal growth and development, I was initially exposed to imago relationship therapy. And that helped me understand what shapes and influences our lives and how, how we forge communic how we forge relationships with other people.
So primarily, our upbringing shapes and influences who we become. Our emotional intelligence, our childhood wounding, and then how we communicate with others, but also how we react when it comes to conflict and confrontation.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: So big words, right? Let me just dial it down a bit. I listen to people, right? And here's something that I listened to. I listened to my own two sons and Paula. I was really surprised. As they entered the workforce, they started talking about the workplace relationships. And when I listened to them, I was actually literally feeling like deja vu. The same thing that they were speaking about were the things I spoke about 30 years ago when I was 21 years old.
That's scary. And what I wanted to just understand from you is that, you know, there's this saying, right? The more things change, the more they stay the same. But what's your opinion on workplace relationships and why do they matter more today than ever before? Even though I do think that we really don't progress much on them. Just want to get your opinion on that.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, so because of how the world has evolved, it's become much more complex and hybrid and fast changing. And especially now with AI coming in, it's also become much more emotionally demanding. And as human beings, we are emotional human beings. We are emotional people, and we are also social people.
We are actually born in relationship. So if you think of your parents, your parents were in a relationship. You got conceived in a relationship and born into relationship. But nobody teaches us how to be in a relationship, not when we're in school or college or university.
And then the only way we learn about being in a relationship is either when we step into our own personal relationships, romantic relationships, or friendships, or in the workplace, and we're no longer managing just tasks anymore. We're dealing with so much more. We're managing uncertainty and change and pressure and technology and diverse expectations across generations.
So when relationships are not strong, people struggle more to connect with each other and to then be able to collaborate and be creative and innovative and deliver on whatever is required, whether it's in the workplace or in the home or personal environment.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: So let's, let's, let's, let's look at this a little bit for me, please, Paula. One of the things that I was listening to, I really was thinking, nodding my head, as you said, was the only time I think about relationships is when I've screwed them up, right? It's only, oh, I could have done something different. Oh, my relationship gone south.
When we talk about relationship and when we talk about Relationship intelligence. Because I heard you use that term at some point in one of your talks earlier that I was listening to.
I have a question for you. I'm a leader in the workplace. What is relationship intelligence exactly? And why should I pay attention to it?
[00:05:24] Speaker B: So it's really about the ability to understand and manage, first of all your own emotions. So it's commonly referred to as emotional intelligence. But then social intelligence is. So how do you use all that information internally, outwards, with the people around you, whether it's personal or professional relationships?
Because that is how we influence each other when it comes to working together.
So in the workplace, it's around listening, listening for understanding, not just because I want to get my own agenda met. It's about building trust. It brings in empathy. It's the ability to resolve conflict. It's the ability to hold people accountable.
So it's really about learning to manage all of those healing human dynamics and human skills that make us human, that are very essential for us to achieve business outcomes and objectives.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: So here's the fun part. We start off with a topic that a lot of leadership leaders would say, you know, I don't understand this touchy feely relationship stuff, but if I listen very carefully, you're actually putting in some gems in there, right? I heard the word performance and I lean forward because if I think about it, performance management is the single most stressful activity in any organization, particularly organizations that still are doing, you know, stank, rank the individuals and then yank them and take them out of the job. Right. So when I listen to you and we use the word influence, right? How exactly do you look at influence? Because when I use the word influence of persuasion, people think I'm talking about politics. Right. So how exactly do you look at influence when it comes from a team, performance and organizational, cultural point of view?
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Well, trust is the key factor here because trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship, personal or professional. And as a result of that performance, so performing in the workplace at an individual level, but also collectively at a team level and then at an organizational level. So when trust is high, it enables people to feel safer, to speak up earlier or communicate earlier, to take ownership of projects and tasks and deliverables, but also ownership of admitting mistakes and or asking for help when they need it, and holding each other accountable.
So people are much more collaborative and willing to work together when the trust is high versus when the trust is low. When the trust is low, people are all about their own agendas. They're about protecting themselves, defending themselves, and what do they need to do to survive in the environment as opposed to thrive in the environment?
[00:08:04] Speaker A: So I like that survive versus thrive mindset. Right. I get that. So. But I'm a leader, and I'm listening to you. And I'm not trying to understand this trust element, because some of the leaders that I've worked with would actually argue that trust is potentially something that shows that I'm vulnerable, and I don't want to be vulnerable. I always need to be in command. People need to look at me. How do you find this balance between this element of trust where you have to let your guard down a bit because trust is earned. Right. No one gives it to you, Paula. So then what guidance would you give someone listening in that, hey, buddy, vulnerability actually means this in this context?
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So vulnerability doesn't mean that you are weak. And I think that's the script that we have to reframe because there's this perception that if you're vulnerable, you're weak. When you're not, it actually takes a very brave and courageous person to put their hand up and say, I don't know, I'm unsure.
I don't have the answer, or I'm struggling and I need help. Whether you are a leader or not. Right.
And there's a lot of work and research and data that can back that up. One of the most common forms of research in this area is by Brene Brown. She's done a very famous TED talk on courage and vulnerability.
So I think it's this perception that leaders, because you have a title, you may feel pressured that you have to know all the answers and you have to solve everything on your own because you have to lead when you actually don't.
And so this is where, you know, leaders need to understand that it's built through consistent behavior, particularly leadership behavior. And now leadership behavior doesn't mean you need to lead from the front. Sometimes you lead from the front, sometimes you lead from behind, where you let people get on and do what you employed them to do and what they're good at. It also requires transparent communication, fairness, because if people perceive that you're not being fair as a leader, they won't participate and engage and follow, and particularly around creating psychological safety in the organization or the team when it comes to the culture and the environment.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Well, that's like a long list of variables, right? If I were to force you and say all, I'm listening to you, I'm excited. I want to build trust. I want to be vulnerable.
What is the. How do you how do I reverse this? What relationship challenges do you see are happening in today's workplace, which you would consider to be the two or three negatives that guys you need to stop doing? And by the way, before you answer that, I'm from Houston and Brene Brown is, I think, University of Houston as well. So this is her stomping ground. I've listened to her talks, but I've never had an opportunity to bump into her, ma', am. So fingers crossed. Let's see if that ever happens.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Well, you'll have to let me know when you do bump into her because she is definitely one of my heroes.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: I'll take one of those nice posy photos and send it to you though with AI, you'll be hard pressed to figure out what's going on. But ma', am, relationship challenges, let's try to get that one out from you because there's a lot you're demanding from leaders.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: The most common ones that we see in organizations is when there is unclear expectations from an individual or a team collectively, when there is poor feedback. So in other words, you are not getting constructive feedback that is growth enabling. Right. Because often feedback gets delivered in a way that is, that feels or lands like criticism, but it's not intended to be, to trust. Exactly.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: So what I'm going to so what I'm going to do is I'm going to dig into this, Paula, because we're going to run out of time in this segment. We'll be right back to discuss conflict communication and creating healthy workplace conversations with Paula.
We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra and you're watching Rise up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Hey, everyone, here we are Rising up with Paula Quincy. She is the author of Embracing Conflict. Paula has helped individuals and organizations really rethink how they push disagreements, tension and difficult conversations.
We have covered a lot of ground with her. Right. And you have heard some very interesting back and forth between me and her. I really think this is one of those episodes that would actually require you listening twice. But Paula, I'm going to kind of dial this one up now. I really want to talk about conflict, stronger teams and, you know, how do we go through this?
I mentioned that I'm listening to my clients today Paula And I keep hearing the same stuff that I've been hearing for the last 30, 35 years, all this development work. And we seem to not be making progress on that. Let me start off by actually understanding from you, Paula, why do so many people view conflict as something negative? You spoke about constructive criticism, right? And if you don't focus on the word constructive, you're going to end up with criticism. And criticism potentially can lead to conflict. But why do people fall into the trap and view conflict as something negative? What would your guidance be?
[00:13:13] Speaker B: We're not taught how to deal with conflict growing up. And the conflict that we get exposed to is the first primary relationship that we're in, which is our primary caregiver. So parents, and so how they deal with conflict lays our own blueprint for how we deal with conflict. And it's been, we experience it as awkward and uncomfortable, which is why we tend to avoid it and distance ourselves from it, as opposed to seeing conflict as growth trying to happen.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: So here's an interesting thing. You know, there's a whole stream of thought that says, you know, how do organizations avoid difficult conversations? And Paula, I always laugh when I say organizations. If I go at 5 o' clock to a building, it's empty. There is no organizations. Ultimately, it's people.
Paula, what is this avoidance? And how do we overcome this avoidance on difficult conversations? How can you give me some advice that makes people actually look forward to a difficult conversation?
Because maybe they have psychological safety, because maybe they are focused on the outcome. What's your guidance?
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Well, that's where it starts with self. So with self awareness and being aware of when you are being triggered or becoming reactive to a situation or a person and actually pausing before you react to catch yourself before you just, you know, flip your lid and react and then try and separate the person from the problem. Because they are two different things, right? It's not the person and it's not necessarily a personal attack. It's around this is the problem, how do we solve the problem? And so listening to try and understand as opposed to listening to respond, because often we listen to respond and then very clearly naming this is the situation, this is the impact, and how do we find a way forward that we can both, you know, or all of us collectively, that there's a win win, and then agreeing on what the next steps and next behaviors and follow through are, not just that there's an intention, like let's learn to communicate better. There's nothing clear about that that manages expectations.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: I, I like this compartmentalization you spoke about, right? Because I come from a.
Excuse me, I come from a sales background, right, Paula.
And in sales, one of the things I've noticed is consistent stress.
Consistent, no. So you can literally flip a coin, you know, 50%, 70% of the time, someone's going to say no to you at some point. Either you desensitize yourself or you master the art of separating your self worth and your identity with what's happening in your role. And I think there was a very powerful message in what you shared there. So I'm a leader and I'm listening to you and I am telling you, and I can say this to Paula, most leaders tell me, listen mate, democracy has to end at some point. I cannot have conversations that just carry on and on and on. I need to put my foot down and get the job done. Now here comes with that type of mindset, right? How can leaders create an environment where healthy disagreement is actually encouraged?
[00:16:09] Speaker B: So I think it's about laying the ground rules that there's no right or wrong answers and no one person's idea is more superior than the other person's. Right.
So creating that trust, creating that open environment where, where we can have healthy debates and disagreements because there's more than one way of doing something and your way is not the only way or the right way.
So how can we be open to other people's ideas and views and opinions and then out of that, take the best one that works for the best situation or for the team? Right?
[00:16:43] Speaker A: Now I like that because sometimes I've noticed when the collective comes together, my own experience has been, Paula, a better outcome. Now the question is, which manager can actually get the collective to come together? How does it distill and then get the best out of them? And I think that managers struggle with that a lot. When I was listening to you, I could actually see that you talked about vulnerability, trust and Brendan Brown, we came up as well. Right. If I were to push you a little more, right? So I'm a leader, I'm a professional.
I have just dialed into this and I'm listening to this and I'm saying, well, this is cool, but can you help me get practical deeper?
So what would you say is the top two things or practical strategies that someone could use to navigate conflict in a very productive manner where both parties lead with a win, win field, not a win, lose or loss loss situation?
[00:17:31] Speaker B: I think it's around understanding what the real issue is and clarifying the expectations and then addressing that issue directly head on. And Then what support do you need from me as a leader?
[00:17:48] Speaker A: When we talk about issues, addressing something head on, I think we back to those variables you spoke about earlier. You have to be direct. You need to get the issue at hand on the table. Both have to agree that it's worthy of figuring out. So, Paula. I get that now. Paula. Conflict. How exactly can we make conflict even? And the word conflict by definition sounds negative, right, Paula? I mean, but I also know I have a conflict. My son would say, and I would say, what happened? He said, I have to choose from five different desserts and I want all of them. Now. That's a great conflict to have. Right. In the context of conflict. Right. I do believe that some element of stress I think may be good for people and the problem is consistency or in ups and downs and swings and in sales, I tell people, we know that you'll be stressed out. We need to just manage that. When it comes to conflict, how exactly could you think that conflict could become a catalyst for stronger relationships and better outcomes, even though it has a negative connotation to it?
[00:18:44] Speaker B: I think seeing conflict as growth, trying to happen. Right. And understanding that what's the resistance is we're being pushed out of our comfort zones. We're feeling uncomfortable, we're feeling awkward. And maybe it's because we're being challenged on a level. Maybe our views are being challenged, our opinions, our ideas, or we're being set in our ways is being challenged. So instead of resisting it, to flip it on its head and go, what can I learn here about myself, about the situation or the environment or about the other person?
And how can I use these insights to grow as an individual, but also collectively as well.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: So when we talk about collective growth. Right. I think human beings tend to be selfish. We either. And it's a binary selfishness. I don't know how to explain this to Paula. They tell me they want to better themselves, but then they will not do this reflection that's required for it. And we end up defusing ourselves. So if I am thinking about this conversation and I would want to choose a way to figure out how I can manage conflict better, is there some kind of like guidance, advice or framework you would give that look at the conflict from this point of view, pick this and think about it this way. And that is a step by step model to greatness.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Sure. So I think, you know, it's first of all, understanding that conflict doesn't need, doesn't mean that it's this huge, big, awkward, horrible thing that's Happening. It can be as simple as we have a different view and opinion, right? It doesn't need to be screaming matches.
So understand that conflict is, is a good thing because we're being pushed and challenged out of our comfort zones.
Identify what the real issue is. So try and take the emotion out of the situation and go, what is the real issue here? Step into the space with compassion and empathy and understanding. It's not about making one right or wrong or trying to get the upper hand. It's about really going in with a solution. Minds orientated mindset. It's about understanding that the person opposite me is a human being and they have needs and I have needs. So how do we get our needs met? Okay, how do we find a way forward?
And then it's about clear communication, clearly identifying and unpacking what the desired outcome is.
So this is what I'd like us to walk away with.
Would like to hear what your ideas and your views and your opinions are or your suggestions are. Let's put them on the table. Let's then agree on which one we feel most comfortable with taking that first step or that first action with.
And then once we've taken that first step in action, let's go back and review and continue the process.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: I think I got about million dollars worth of ideas right there. I think you actually gave us a framework, a step by step understanding. Here's what really frightened me. You actually had to call out, look at the person across from you as a fellow human being. Paul. Are we living in an age where we have to actually tell people to think like that? And then you use the words like, you know, empathize, sympathize. Right. And I feel that they're two different constructs. And I was just curious from your point of view, why do we feel the need to actually call out, look at the person across from. As a human being, what's your experience been? Is that framing necessary? Is something happening in the world today that we actually have to call that out Also?
[00:22:10] Speaker B: First of all, just in terms of physio from our physiology, right? When we become reactive and defensive, all logical rational thinking goes out the window. Because we call it our reptilian brain. Our reptilian brain kicks in and it's all about survival. Fight, flee or freeze. Okay? And so when we are being triggered, we're. Our ability to make rational decisions is lowered because we're all about survival. So if we can take a step back and go, okay, this person is being triggered just like me.
And in order for us to be constructive and to move forward. How can I step into that person's face and see where they are coming from? See the world through their eyes which is where the compassion and empathy comes in. And by remaining calm myself, I co create a safe space for the other person to step in and into my world and try to see things from my perspective.
So containing the conflict, I like that.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Containing the conflict.
I really think that my audience really needs to. Well, this is one of those discussions where the guys really need to slow things down and listen carefully. I tend to have a lot of leaders allows to have a lot of early career people listening in and we're going to talk about that as we move forward. I do want to get some ideas from you on 21 year olds starting the workforce. Right. What ideas do you have for them to start thinking differently? Well, we're going to start wrapping this segment up. I really enjoy that. One thing that came to my mind is that conflict itself isn't the problem. I really like the fact that Paul is asking for balance, psychological safety, put yourself in the shoes, empathy. And when you start thinking like that, is this when you start engaging differently? And then it's, I would say that engagement leads to us becoming the difference between something being destructive or transformative. After the break, we'll explore psychological safety, leadership and workplace well being with the great Paula Quincy.
We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra and you're watching Rise up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Ladies and gentlemen, I am back.
Welcome back to Rise up at Work. We are going to carry on with the conversation with Paula Quincy. I think she has been throwing some bombs and she's been giving us great nuggets. I want you to slow down everyone and kind of make sure that you are threading those nuggets in a structured way. Organizations today, particularly the ones that I work for in my consulting work, there are tons of challenges that come around. Employee engagement, mental health, burnout, retention. We use the word mental health and people freak out. It's not, I think there's still a certain stigma attached to it. I am a very big proponent and I have a big focus on this. I also argue leaders who succeed are often those who understand how to create psychological safe environments where people Feel seen, heard and valued. Paula has used the word psychological safety at least three times. And if I were playing a bingo, I think my card would have won by now. What I want to do is I want to talk about how to take this conversation and make human centered leadership at the core of it and convert that into competitive advantage. Paula, I'm going to dial back a bit here, right? Psychological safety. You use words like triggered and so on, right? We live in times where people hear certain words and they use the word trigger. And someone told me the word trigger itself is a trigger. When we talk about psychological safety.
Forgive all the noise, forget all that. Give me your perspective and tell me what does it look like in practice? Maybe a script or a conversation that will make me make sense of it?
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Well, the perception is, is that we have to all be friends, we have to like each other, and, you know, we sit around the campfire and kumbaya, but it's actually not that, right?
So. So psychological safety is where the space feels safe enough that I can raise issues and concerns, that I am not afraid to challenge or push back, that I feel like my team members or my leader has my back and vice versa, that I can, when I make mistakes, that it's not a punishment, but it's used as a growth experience.
And that we collectively in this together with a common objective and a common purpose, and we pull each other along, we can hold each other accountable, we can call each other out, and it's not taken personally.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: I have a question, Paula. Psychological safety. People hear the word psychological and they tend to think it's something touchy feely, softy.
How do you connect psychological safety back to maybe personal safety, physical safety, harm. It's all a complex construct. Help me understand that because I really do want listeners and leadership listening to kind of understand it's not just I think the words you say matter, but the way you say it, the tone and. And the setting at where you also say it matters. How is this bigger picture for you when it comes to psychological safety? And could you give me an example of a script that you might know? Employee says this, manager says this. This is a very bad way of saying it. Maybe there's a different way of saying it.
Could you help me with that one?
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Sure. So, I mean, companies have a responsibility to create both a physically safe working environment and a mentally emotional, safe working environment. Right?
So when it comes to it's. It's the language that we use, it's how we show up for each other, it's how we Interact with each other and engage with each other. So an example would be, you know, an employee has come to you as a leader, and they've given you a report that they've done or some data and some research analysis that they've done, and you read through it, and your response is, well, why did you do it this way?
That can come across as being perceived as attacking or fault finding or criticizing, right? Whereas if you answer the question in a different way and you go, help me understand how you got to this outcome or how you got to this answer, so you're creating a safe environment by stepping into that person's world to get a deeper perspective.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: It's, you know, really, Paula, there's so much. I would say, common sense in what you said, right? And as my wife would gleefully say, and deepak the world. You know, what is common about common sense is it's fairly uncommon.
I talk to leaders, and I have done it myself, Paula. I get a report and I say, why did you do it this way?
And my boss once told me, just change your tone. He said, your message is perfect, but your tone was wrong.
So I said, what does that mean? And the next time I got something, I did what I did. I said, this is interesting. Why did you do it this way? Walk me through what was going through your mind. That singular turn of tone and adding those two or three words made the person comfortable to tell me how he was approaching it. And here's what I learned, Paula.
At first glance, very senior, you know, direct individuals like myself, who I would say are borderline aggressive, not disassertive. We tend to try to overreach. We always cast our own thinking onto others. I was notorious for never letting people complete their sentence. Paula, you were talking, and I would tell you, yeah, I know where you're going. You're going to say, do this. We tried it five years ago. It doesn't work.
And then suddenly my guy that used to report to me said to me, boss, it may not work. I'd get that. But by if I don't get it off my chest, then in the next meeting, I'm not going to say anything to you when I know you're patently doing something wrong.
And that hit me. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. My goal is definitely not Paula. To slow people down, right? It's to get them to be better at what they do. And if I'm making a mistake, the courage to tell me, you're making a mistake. And then I suddenly it hit me, this is all interconnected, I think, in my entire life, Paula, for the first time I packed up everything at 4 o' clock and went home because I actually realized. And you use the word self aware this earlier, right, Paula, And I really want to talk about that a little more as we go forward here. But here I am, I am a leader. My job is to create environments where employees feel comfortable speaking up.
What's the first thing? We've discussed this earlier. Right. I would now say to you, let's say that you have an employee, Paula, that does not rise to the challenge as well. Some just don't. Some don't question. How can we ask or say things to bring them out of their shell. How do we handle that? It's a bit an obtuse question, but I'm not actually flipping it. It's not just about you saying something and hoping the reception has been received by the other party. But if the other party doesn't seem to be doing what it's supposed to be doing, what can a leader do? How do you probe deeper? How do you ensure that you're creating this environment and getting this person to speak up?
[00:30:51] Speaker B: I think this is important where leaders need to know their people on a one on one basis because everybody is different. And I don't really like to use labels, but just for the illustration purposes, I'm going to use introverts, extroverts here. So the introverts don't like to be put on the spot and, and in a group environment or a social setting to speak up. Right.
It's, it's one of their biggest fears.
So if you know your people and you know which ones are the quiet ones and which ones are the dominant ones, it's for you as to find a balance so that the dominant voices don't just use all the airtime, but creating a safe space that the, the introverts or the quiet ones can speak up. So Deepak, if I know that you are an introvert, I can go to one of the others, the more dominant voices and say, you know, hey Charlie, I want to know your opinion on this. In fact, I'm going to ask all of you, so I'm going to come back to you. But let's start with you, Charlie, give me your views on the situation right now. So by doing that, I'm giving you as the quieter one, time to think and process your thoughts. I'm not putting on the spot. I'm making a safe environment so that you can then speak up. Right. So I'm creating That safe space.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: I would, I would agree with you on that one. I think that works very well. It's calling upon in a very polite and judicious way and of course, rotating the opportunity. Also, because you're right, labels don't help. I think finding the right balance and the right cycle to get people to contribute does work wonders. Introvert or extrovert? Paula, I'm going to go back to. We both kind of latched on to this mental health, right? And I said there's a stigma to it. I really want to double down into it a bit. Right.
Paula, you have done a lot of work when it comes to well being, right? Now when we talk about well being, there's the physical aspect to it, then there's all the other emotion. But what role does mental well being play in workplace performance? I mean, I know the stats, I know all that. I understand, but there must be some ROI by doing it. What would that look like?
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, before, historically, you know, when it came to mental health and physical health, they were perceived as two separate things because of the stigma associated it. So we didn't talk about mental health issues. It was, you know, but if you were physically ill, you stayed at home and got better, got a doctor's note and then came back to work when you were better. Right. But what we don't realize is that mental health is health because if mentally I'm not in a good space, it is going to affect me physically and if physically I'm not in a good space, I'm ill, it's going to affect me mentally or emotionally. Right? So we are, it's one and the same thing. Mental health is health and well being and it affects our day to day interaction with the people around us, personally, professionally, and it affects our ability to focus and it affects our productivity, our capacity to do things right. So when it comes to businesses, at the end of the day, your people are your business and if your people are not well, your business is not well.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: I think I just got the title for this podcast, your people are your business. I love that. And I'll put it on a T shirt as well. And hopefully you make millions. We'll spread it. Thank you for that, ma'.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Am.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: I am enjoying this because for me, mental well being has, I would say, honestly, the stigma is still there in the conversations I have.
I mean, I was watching a documentary and we were talking about this individual who is spiraling down because of his consistent use of AI and the time he was spending with it to the point where he was having the delusions or psychosis that AI is actually talking to me and that I'm communicating with AI. And as I was listening to him, he spoke about the role his mother had in detecting something and then showing him the light. So he says very calmly and quietly, why did it take my mother to help me when I have hundreds of friends who could have picked this up as well?
And then they interview a friend and his friend says the reason I didn't speak was because I didn't understand what was going on. And I really felt that. He's a smart guy. He'll figure it out. That was a revelation for me. I think we wait for people to stumble before we give a lending hand. And sometimes the stumble is too late. Ma', am, I'm gonna kind of wrap things up here, right? We spoke about a lot of things. But Paula, one of the things I want to check with you is that I know I'm a leader. I want to be accountable and I have to be accountable. But how can I be accountable while being empathetic? How does that work?
[00:35:11] Speaker B: So when there is empathy without accountability, it becomes avoidance, Right? Because we're avoiding having the hard conversations or we're avoiding dealing with the issue head on. Whereas accountability without empathy can lead to fear and the person feeling unsafe. Right.
So micromanaging or fear based management.
So it's about finding the balance in the middle. Right. And so practically what this means is leaders need to clarify expectations both ways, understand what the outcome or the deliverable is, understand the context of what contributed to this, and then agree on the outcomes, the follow throughs, the actions, the support and the consequences.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: So what I'm going to do, Paula, is I'm going to actually dig into that. In segment four, we'll take one final break and we return to discuss personal growth, resilience and the future workplace leadership and what a glorious future we hope it is.
We'll be right back with real stories, fresh insights and action steps to help you rise up at work without losing yourself. You're watching Rise up at work on Now Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra and you're watching Rise up at Work on NOW Media Television. Let's keep reclaiming your career and learning how to truly rise up at work.
Welcome back, everyone. Just to call out, I need everyone to stay connected to Rise up at Work and every NOW Media TV favorite streaming worldwide. You can find us in lots of places. Looking forward to you catching us anywhere and everywhere. We are now Concluding today's conversation with Paula Quincy. I want to focus on what it truly means to thrive, not just survive. Her own words.
Professional success is important. We all agree to that. I've always said hustle, ambition are not something to be frowned upon. But the way you go about and that going about is where we talk about sustainable growth. We need to make sure that it's resilient. It's based on self awareness, meaningful relationships and a commitment to continuous learning. All of these facets and words I've heard coming out and Paula's been nudging us in that direction.
Paula, as we wrap up, I really want to make this a bit more, how do you say this? Let's talk a bit more stuff that makes a lot of sense, thriving at work, right? What exactly does that mean to you at a very personal level, Paula, how do you define thriving at work?
[00:37:41] Speaker B: I think for me it's around going to a place where I feel my contribution is being recognized and valued. And I'm not just talking financially, I'm talking around me as an individual. My skill sets, my creativity, my individuality that I bring to the workplace, that I go to a place where I can be challenged from a growth point of view, that I can also be given the time and the space and the support to not only learn individually but also to grow and evolve. As the team grows and evolves and as the organization grows and evolves, I want to feel like I'm making progress in life and I'm making a meaningful contribution and it's linked to purpose.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: This is, I think the third time use the word purpose. I use the word calling. I don't want to say that they're two different things, but I do keep coming back to this. I've always said this to people. Look, at the end of the day I'm not talking about something hairy, fairy, you know, there's people use the word north star. I get it, I get it. And religions have been based on the sighting of stars and following the stars. Right, Paula. So Paula, I'm going to go back to this one word that you have said multiple times. Self awareness. Right. For me, I think that self awareness is a very important foundation for leadership in healthy relationships. What is your perspective on self awareness? And then there's one little bit tricky thing I'm going to throw in there for you. When you talk about self awareness, do tell me about the generic formulation. But then I want you to think about that 21 year old who walks out from college is being taught everything but the Ability to navigate the corporate. I don't want to use the word cesspool. There we go. I did use it. Right.
How does self awareness come to someone who's a 21, who's not that professionally mature to actually make sense of it?
Complex question. Take your time.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Yeah, so look, as we go through different life stages, our needs and our priorities and outlook on life shifts and changes. So it's this constantly checking in with yourself in terms of where am I at in my life right now? What is of value or of importance importance to me? What perhaps outdated beliefs or assumptions am I hanging on to? What can I look at and reflect on in terms of my journey and how far I've come? Not only in terms of what I've achieved but what I've overcome and what has that taught me? Because that's where our self awareness comes from.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: So let's go back to that 21 year old. He has heard these fancy words I in my work. And when I looked at my two sons, one of the things I realized was that these guys are living such a fast paced life that if you look at the, the only time I actually see the guys being faster, like if a mom calls them for dinner or for lunch, they, they're taking the sweet time. But when it comes to sending messages, I'll be right there, just want to finish this message. And I see the thumbs like lightning.
21 year old looking for a framework needs to understand self awareness.
You said something about sit down, go through, look at some stuff. Is this like a self journaling call to action or is there something else going on here, Paula?
[00:40:47] Speaker B: So I mean, you know, different things work for different people. Some people prefer journaling, some people prefer meditation, some people prefer talking to someone. So whether it's from a therapy point of view or a life coach point of view or a trusted mentor or someone that they can lean into that can hold the mirror up to them and you know, help you see your blind spots. Because we, we don't know what we don't.
[00:41:11] Speaker A: We don't know what we don't. That is profound because my ex boss used to tell me the reason why Deepak, you see nails everywhere is because you were thinking like a hammer. And it took me two days to decipher that and I'm like, oh, he's right. And when you become self aware of your own biases, it's very powerful. That's one of the messages I give to any 21 year old listening into this. And first you're here listening at 21. I'm impressed. Congratulations. Thank you for being here, listening to us.
Paula. I'm, let's say a professional. And I've had this I would support at least three times in my life. My wife called it a midlife crisis, then she called it a post midlife crisis. Then she said childish.
50, but childish.
I felt disconnected from my work. I actually used the word overwhelmed to explain what I was going through to my wife. And then I actually said, you know, I just feel like I've been in this company for 11 years of my life.
At least two or three seem to be wasted. It seems like I'm stuck. What do I need to do differently? What advice would you give professionals who like me, feel disconnected from what they do, Feeling overwhelmed. Right. Or stuck in their careers? How do we break a logjam like that?
[00:42:18] Speaker B: So I mean it links into what we were talking about previously around self awareness. So, you know, sitting down and going, what is draining me right now?
Where am I feeling sort of stuck, resentful, that it's just like I don't want to, I'm not happy there. And then on the other hand, look at what energizes me right now. So what tasks, what people, what environments energize me versus what drains me? And where do I feel like I am compromising myself? I'm, I'm losing myself because either there's an element of people pleasing, some overextending myself, or I'm staying stuck in my comfort zones and I'm playing it small or I'm playing it safe, right? And then what one small decision can I make that can be a step forward? So I don't need to have all the answers, I don't need to have it all figured out. But if I can just take one step forward, I will be in a different place with a different perspective. And what can I then do with that information at hand and apply it in the same way to keep shifting and moving forward?
[00:43:26] Speaker A: I, I think my 21 year old listening, it just got something very powerful. A lot of 21 year olds, you know, sit down, listen to you, Paula, then try to create something very perfect, very magical. And I think what I heard you say is that you don't need to be perfect or magical. You just need to know directionally what's going on. Put it down, look at it. You may not have all the answers, but that's actually sometimes the journey is what matters, not the destination. And I think, Paul, I would agree with you, for me personally, sometimes when I'm overwhelmed or whatever. I actually try to understand the moment. I don't know the solution, but I want to understand that. And then the solution pops up later as I think through it. I think it's a very valuable piece of advice. Well, I'm going to kind of go back to leaders, right? So I'm a leader. We spoke about psychological safety, right? Now I want to look at this from a mental stigma, from a self awareness disconnection, over and stuck in the careers. I am a leader. I'm on a zoom call and the person that used to be very active is missing on that call. And then sales is one metric I give to people is to ask them how many times do you have to tell the guy to switch his phone, his camera on this? I don't know if there's any research on it, but what I've actually found, when a salesperson is feeling down, he just doesn't feel like he wants to interact. He doesn't want to do eye contact because he knows what's going to happen. I show my face and the boss is going to remind me that you're 22% below quota.
And then the next conversation is how are you going to close the gap? How are you going to close the gap? Ride along. Should I come with you? Should I sit with you? Should I help you? Should I do your job for you?
And Paula, I think this entire conversation that we had is everything. When it goes down like that, it's a breach of psychological safety. You've like played the person and the ball at the same time, which is against the rules. Paula, I'm a leader. I want to create a workplace. If you could start kind of like summarizing everything we have done in the last three or four segments, right. And give me a takeaway for leaders that they can start making sure that the people are flourishing, what would that look like in terms of a small package?
[00:45:22] Speaker B: So I think it's understanding that, you know, a flourishing workplace doesn't mean you're not going to have pressure and stress or challenging times. You are, that's part of life, right? But it's an environment or a workplace where you feel like you have enough trust, support, meaning and accountability to meet that pressure in a healthy, sustainable way.
So without losing yourself or without impacting your well being to a detrimental level,
[00:45:50] Speaker A: I honestly, I was hoping you'd keep talking because there's again so many nuggets in there. What I want to do, Paula, is I'm a leader. I want to make people flourish. Can I Get a definition for you as to what flourish actually means. Because I just realized flourish could be anything. Right. I might think that flourish means I double your salary, but you're still unhappy.
How would you respond to that question?
[00:46:14] Speaker B: So flourishing is about creating a culture or an environment where people can deliver the results in their individual role or as a team or as an organization where you can deliver those results without losing yourself in the process. Okay.
So feeling like your work is meaningful, that it's giving you purpose, that it's creating impact. And when I say those things, purpose and impact, I'm not saying this, you know, this huge big thing, it can just feel like I'm creating impact, that I'm contributing to my team and my team success and the organization success. It doesn't necessarily mean from a, you know, a legacy that is, is life changing.
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Yes, I like that. So it's the definition of flourish is ultimately what you need to sustain. Doesn't need to be a list of hundred items. Could be a list of two or three items. Makes a lot of sense. Paula, I've had a lot of fun as we start wrapping up. If my listeners were to try to find you, where would they find you, ma'?
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Am?
So I'm on all the social platforms, so LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, my website, engaged humans.com I love that.
[00:47:28] Speaker A: Engaged humans.com. i'm actually very proud of you, Paula, for pulling off that domain because I'm sure if someone trying to get it, they won't get it. Now, let's start wrapping up. Thank you, Paula, for joining us. I enjoyed that you've shared some really powerful insights on relationship intelligence, workplace trust, conflict transformation, and human centered leadership. I am grateful. I really hope the audience listens very carefully because Rise up at Work is where we actually talk about career success.
Everything that Paula has mentioned today, it's not just about achieving more, it's about doing it in a better way. Becoming more aware, more self aware, more intentional. I'm Dr. Deepak Bhutra. Thank you for watching Rise up at Work.
